Bob Apollo | Structural and Cultural Prerequisites for Sales Improvement

In his second appearance on the podcast, Bob Apollo highlights the three things the sales team as a group must understand about their prospect to sell effectively, efficiently, and profitably.

Bob points out that the “silos” bedeviling many organizations can’t be avoided without disseminating this knowledge from the frontline to the back.

Tune in to discover…

• Why the Ideal Customer Profile goes beyond demographic and geographic details
• How sales activity-based sales management sabotages revenue goals
• The right way to use a CRM – it’s almost useless “out of the box”
• The metric investors miss when looking at putting money into start-ups
• And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in This Episode: www.inflexion-point.com

Episode Transcript:

Michael Webb: Hello, this is Michael Webb. Some people focus on reaching decision makers and selling value, other people focus on gathering data, analyzing cause and effect. In this podcast, we focus on both. On selling value and using data to tell us where the value is so that we can create wealth for customers, our companies, and ourselves.

This is the Sales Process Excellence Podcast, and I’m thrilled to have Bob Apollo with me again. Bob, thank you for coming.

Bob Apollo: Michael, thank you for inviting me again. I’m very glad to have joined you today.

Michael Webb: And just for those who might not have heard the first podcast we did, can you give us a 30-second overview of what you do?

Bob Apollo: So I run a sales effectiveness consultancy company based here in the UK. But last year, our client footprint stretched from Salt Lake City to Mumbai. One of my goals this year is to make that footprint a little bit shorter. But what we do for those clients is to help put their integrated program together, combines training, systems, processes, and materials to help all of their salespeople do a more effective job of engaging with their customers.

Michael Webb: Super. So I, definitely, think from my research, you are in the leading edge consultancies in process effectiveness, sales effectiveness, because you’re connecting multiple factors. So when we had our first discussion, we kind of ended that discussion and you were making some observations about CRM software, and how it has changed over the years, and the need for, as you just pointed out, this integrated approach a variety of factors.

So we agreed to have another conversation and, this time, to focus especially on CRM, and software, and the role of software. So to kind of start this out, I have a sort of a strategic definition question to start us out just to make sure that we’ve defined our terms, and we’re talking about the same thing.

So there’s this group of customer-facing people in any company, they’re usually working really hard, they have various kinds of expertise in sales, and marketing, communications, relationship building, negotiation, training, and servicing customer, and so forth. Now if you’re the leader, and you’re responsible for the performance of the company and, specifically, for this sales marketing servicing team; so that’s the context.

Now, if you’re the leader of that company at the end of the day, ultimately, Bob tell me, what are you pursuing or wanting to maintain, gain, or improve, at least at a high level, kind of a results oriented level? What are you trying to maintain, gain, or improve as a leader?

Bob Apollo: So I think both at the individual level, and at the collective level with a group of people with that range of responsibilities, what I’d like to accomplish is a really clear, and common understanding of who our best customers are, what the key problems we solve for them are, how we deliver solutions that enable them to achieve business advantage, and that information is widely shared and disseminated within our organization.

So, in turn, all of that important understanding and insight can be shared back with both our current and future customers. I think really that’s a matter of making sure that we create a learning environment, that we eliminate sources of waste and of error, and that we recognize that much of this information is actually in the heads and in the experience of our colleagues in the front line. And it’s only really by collecting and re-sharing that frontline experience that we can maximize our progress.

Michael Webb: All right, so I have a follow-up question, and then I’m going to ask you a clarification question. So the follow-up question is that same person, that leader, what do you wanting to avoid or decrease?

Bob Apollo: Well, I think it depends on where I’m starting from. But, certainly, I would want to be decreasing or eliminating the silos of information that commonly bedevil large organizations. I’d like to avoid any of the members of my team making repeatable, avoidable errors.

I’d probably be less concerned about the pursuit of perfection because I think that’s a particularly difficult challenge in a complex sales environment. But certainly, I’d want us to, collectively and progressively, eliminate the predictable things we should be avoiding, or not doing, in order to get the best possible results both for ourselves and for our customers.

Michael Webb: Okay.

Bob Apollo: And you need data for that. You need patents, you need to be able to identify patterns of performance and behavior, and you need data, and you need to be able to draw some conclusions as to the relationship between different data points.

Michael Webb: Yeah, okay. So let me ask a clarifying question, and it’s going to sound like I’m pushing back a little bit, and I am, but I think you’ll agree with the reason why. Because you just said we need data and evidence to be able to figure out what to stop doing, right?

Bob Apollo: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Webb: And so the question is how do you know? How do you know that you need to decrease the silos? Why are you decreasing the silos? Why are you needing to avoid errors, just like why do you need to know better what customers want? Why do you need to take what’s in people’s head and synchronize it around the team?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that an organization is a system, and it consumes resources, and it produces value. So you have input, and you have output, and at the end of the day, you’re trying to increase the value that it produces, and reduce the resources that it consumes. Would you agree with that?

Bob Apollo: Broadly speaking, I don’t think that’s the only objective, but certainly going to be one of the high-level objectives for an organization.

Michael Webb: Okay, so we haven’t defined what value is. So what other objectives would there be besides that?

Bob Apollo: Well we might, for example, want to increase our share of the market, we might want to penetrate a new market, we might want to change the balance or the shape of our business. Now all of those, ultimately, point towards the creation or the destruction of value, but there are some specific ways in which we might choose to look at those goals.

Michael Webb: Yes, okay. So yes, I see why you said broadly speaking. So now, I mean at a high level then, the purpose is to increase the value, the profit, and reduce the cost, and the waste. And so if you get past that, then you get into, “Well, gee, this is the system, what are the elements or the factors that affect it, those outcomes that you desire?” So you mentioned some of them, I think. Is there like a framework that you repeatedly use when you’re thinking about those causes and effects that are in a sales and marketing organization?

Bob Apollo: So there are a number of indicators, which I think can provide a framework. One of the things I’d look for in any client engagement is the clarity with which we understand our ideal customer profile. And that ideal customer profile is not just about we sell into this demographic, or that geography, or into that role; it’s more about the type of organizations we have managed to be most successful with.

And there’s a closer correlation, when you look at these things, between structural and cultural factors which I’ll acknowledge are harder to measure, but no less important for that, than there is a correlation between we do best in this or that industry. And that’s just one, potential, foundational piece of information.

Michael Webb: Sure, so keep going, what are some of the other foundations?

Bob Apollo: So another one I think is what issues we’re choosing to try and solve for the customer. Now, this implies, of course, that we are a company whose mission is to deliver somewhat replicable solutions, that we’re not trying to craft a brand new and unique solution for every individual customer. That, for example, might be represented by a system integrator model.

But if we’re an organization that’s trying, on a replicable and somewhat predictable basis, to identify and address common customer problems, then clarity about, “So what issues did our customers come to us with, and what outcomes did we successfully enable them to achieve?” And to your thoughts about value, of course, I think one of the key foundations for a vendor generating value is the degree of value that they enable their customers to achieve as a consequence of their involvement.

Michael Webb: Okay. Anything else?

Bob Apollo: I think when it comes to patents and processes, I’ve always found it more helpful to be able to diagnose where we succeed or fail in any customer engagement if I look at it through the lens of, “Where’s the customer in their decision-making journey?”

Michael Webb: There we go, yeah.

Bob Apollo: And what have we done to facilitate that decision making journey?

Michael Webb: Right.

Bob Apollo: And that is at odds with many conventional approaches to sales management, which tend to be sales activity or sales stage based. It’s also contrary to what you, typically, get if you opened up the virtual box of a CRM solution and looked at how it has been initially configured.

Michael Webb: I’m working with a client, right now, and that’s one of their fundamental complaints, is that the way that they’re managing sales right now is all about activities.

Bob Apollo: Yep.

Michael Webb: And so one of the sales managers sort of, surreptitiously, pulled some information from the database and made an analysis that the people who were the best at hitting those activity targets were, typically, not the ones who are the best at achieving the revenue goals, and customer satisfaction goals, and so forth.

Bob Apollo: Well, and I think one of the potential challenges there is if the metrics are, largely, quantity based and are not quality based.

Michael Webb: Exactly.

Bob Apollo: By quality, I mean play a real role in advancing the buying decision process; then you’re absolutely right. And in fact, I think it is a significant failure in many organizations that they think about activity as, fundamentally, a question of quantity and not of quality.

Michael Webb: And so I’ve often observed that within a B2B company, it’s very common for almost no one to really understand how sales are made. Have you seen that too?

Bob Apollo: Maybe I’m fortunate in that the clients I work with are, perhaps, a little bit more enlightened than you suggest. You mean outside of the sales management team?

Michael Webb: Yeah. Outside of sales management and the rest of the company. They don’t understand.

Bob Apollo: No, I think that is a bit of a problem, and it’s actually an even broader problem than that. Because, of course, many of the clients I work with are in a scale up or growth phase, and they’re looking for external growth investment.

And one of my observations is that the external investors are often pretty well experienced about doing financial due diligence, but they’re very often blindsided by what I’d characterize as ‘sales effectiveness’ or ‘sales scalability’ due diligence.

Michael Webb: Tell me more.

Bob Apollo: Well, the financial due diligence measures are relatively easy to establish. But if I’m thinking about investing in an, apparently, promising business, part of my investment hypothesis, whether I declare it openly or not, is a belief that by injecting financial resources, those financial resources will then be invested in increasing capacity in well-identified parts of the sales process that have the effect of driving revenue and profit.

And, unfortunately, the influx of new investment often results, let’s say, in a round of hiring of new salespeople and so on. And those new salespeople are thrown into a context that they don’t really understand-

Michael Webb: Right.

Bob Apollo: But also the organization recruiting them doesn’t properly understand. So they can’t give them the sort of guidance that would allow an otherwise well qualified new salesperson to become effective anything like as quickly as they could be.

Michael Webb: Well, and there’s even more. I’m reminded of a book, an old book, Managing Major Sales by Neil Rackham and Richard Ruff.

Bob Apollo: Yeah.

Michael Webb: From the 1990s or something. But there’s a story that Neil Rackham talks about in there of a company that was struggling to grow, so they hired a new sales manager. And when the sales manager observed that the salespeople were only making like two calls per day, immediately issued the edict, “Well you guys have to triple that. We need sales people making way more calls per day.”

Bob Apollo: Right.

Michael Webb: And there were objections, and there was resistance and, ultimately, there was turnover, and there were customers leaving, and it did not work at all. Because that sales manager had in his mind a different industry where he had grown up, and the way to succeed in that industry was higher call volume activity.

Bob Apollo: Sure.

Michael Webb: And nobody really could articulate the qualities that could tell you whether a salesperson was doing a good job or a customer was really a good prospect.

Bob Apollo: And it’s more about outcomes achieved than activities completed. But that takes a slightly different mindset if I might suggest the somewhat more sophisticated mindset. Because it’s pretty convenient, isn’t it-

Michael Webb: Yeah.

Bob Apollo: To just think in terms of an easily measurable activity? But you know the purpose of any activity in the sales process, I would suggest, is to achieve a desired outcome. And that’s really where the focus needs to be.

Michael Webb: And the outcome, ultimately, some people think the outcome is a sale. But I heard you say something that more advanced companies, and I agree with this, I think you’re saying that the outcome is a customer who’s more profitable because of you. Because that way, they’re reference-able, and they’ll be loyal.

Bob Apollo: Sure, that’s one version of a long term outcome, but I’d also suggest to you that the short term outcome might be the recognition, sooner rather than later, that the opportunity you’re pursuing is actually unlikely to be successful; either for you or for the customer. And so one of the outcomes is a willingness to walk away from bad business, or bad potential business.

Michael Webb: Right, right, to be able to identify it-

Bob Apollo: Yeah.

Michael Webb: And then to have the license to walk away from it. That can be difficult for those organizations to get used to.

Bob Apollo: Well and to your point about data, again, we’ve discussed why activity levels are not, necessarily, particularly good metrics if they’re out of context. Then equally raw pipeline value isn’t a particularly good measure. And in fact, what I’ve observed is those organizations who have an obsession about building pipeline value without proper regard for the quality of the pipeline, very often then create an environment where salespeople are discouraged from qualifying out bad opportunities. And that’s a really dysfunctional way of running a sales organization.

Michael Webb: Yeah, absolutely. So your point is that we have to be able to identify quality?

Bob Apollo: Yep.

Michael Webb: How do we do that?

Bob Apollo: Well, so at the organizational level … And let me put it in context, I’m sure some examples might be helpful. I work with many clients who are pioneering new market segments or attempting to sort of re-engineer existing markets.

And it takes a certain type of potential customer to be open to that sort of thing. A customer that is open to innovation, has a track record of buying best of breed solutions, rather than always falling back on the safe established brands.

And you might not be able to determine that in LinkedIn or in the … You might get some inkling of it in the annual report, but you really make that judgment as a result of having informed conversations with the customer, but you need to know what to ask.

Michael Webb: And so how do you know if a salesperson is doing a good job?

Bob Apollo: Well, again, you look at the surface finish of that is, so what outcomes are those salespeople managing to accomplish? And, again, that I would suggest is dependent on how you’re measuring the outcome. So it is much easier to do so in an environment where you have implemented qualification criteria that the salespeople buy into and see value in, where you’ve implemented a pipeline definition which relates, reasonably accurately. It’s impossible, in many cases, to get perfect accuracy, but reflects with reasonable accuracy where the customer is in their buying cycle.

In my experience, the difference between success and failure can often be found in, probably, no more than a handful of key things that need to be accomplished during the sales process; and perhaps the most important to those is the discovery and qualification exercise.

And so one of the things, I think, if you’re a sales leader would want to look for, would be to satisfy yourself that your salesperson had done their own good due diligence and discovery before deciding to aggressively invest their own resources and pursuing the opportunity.

Michael Webb: Okay. So when we were talking before, you made some points I thought were really quite valid that the history of CRMs that started out, unfortunately-

Bob Apollo: Yep.

Michael Webb: As being kind of administration oriented. And from what you said, I was taking it to also mean that that included gathering data and storing the data, if I’m not mistaken.

Bob Apollo: Yeah, by the way, I don’t want any of this to imply that I’m anti-data. I just think that many of the initial CRM systems didn’t actually collect particularly useful data.

Michael Webb: Right, yeah so I’m in agreement with you there. And then you also said that rather than have a data orientation, you said it’s easier to have a behavior orientation-

Bob Apollo: Well then-

Michael Webb: And bring it back into the data. So explain here what your philosophy is.

Bob Apollo: Well, behavior or process. So as per our earlier interview, I’ve got a slightly ambiguous perspective on how people use the word ‘process’. But I think if you have a sort of a data-centric approach to CRM, it’s all about what’s in the activity record, what’s in the contact record, what’s in the account record and so on.

Whereas I think if you take a behavioral or process orientation, your primary concern is how do we guide salespeople into doing things that are likely to result in valuable outcomes, and what data do we need to support them in their mission to generate valuable outcomes? So you’re kind of reversing it in a way. Yeah, the data is supportive of the outcomes that you’ve recognized you want to accomplish.

Michael Webb: Right, and so how do you know those things? How do you know that certain behaviors will create the outcomes that you want?

Bob Apollo: Well, once you’ve got a bit of a head of steam, and if you’ve chosen to instrument whatever CRM you’ve chosen in a way that allows you to gather the data, that you could, of course, over a period of time build up increasingly useful analysis of this.

But in the early days, prior to having that stream of data, one of the really illuminating data points is often to conduct proper independent win/loss analysis that doesn’t just, as unfortunately so many of them do, just consider think about why did we win or lose.

Which really, typically, then focuses at the end of the buying cycle, but is much more concerned about what were the key stages the buyer went through in their decision making journey, and how well did we facilitate that? What were the moments of truth and the moments of frustration, and what can we do as a result of that learning to encourage more of the right sort of performance on the part of the salesperson?

Michael Webb: Right can you put a concrete example of that? Can you tell us about a situation that’s simple enough but it’s real?

Bob Apollo: Yeah. So, in fact, I’ve been undertaking this was one of my clients. And our initial simple assessment of so what are the patterns of success and failure? So they’re a fairly innovative software vendor, and one of the hidden patterns was they were far more successful in selling to customers that had a best of breed approach to implementing solutions, than they were into the more conservative, “I’ll go with a big brand.” Than-

Michael Webb: Is that an observation, or is that a judgment, or how do you know that?

Bob Apollo: Well, this is semi-scientific, yeah, so I think we need a structure that sometimes you’re just looking for some insights which you then look for ways of proving. But when we were conducting the loss analysis, in particular, and asking very often champions of the project what had happened, they would say, “Well, we didn’t realize that our corporate strategy was going to come down so hard in favor of the established vendors.” So that insight can then allow us to make sure that we ask a question. We observe, we look for evidence of how the customer has made previous decisions.

Michael Webb: Good. Okay. All right, so keep going.

Bob Apollo: I think the other very, very clear pattern was that they tended to be much more successful, the salespeople who were more successful, so this is partly down to looking for patterns of sales behavior, as well, were ones that had the confidence to really stick with the discovery process for, significantly, longer than the more boisterous colleagues who would tend to pitch the solution too early.

Michael Webb: Yeah.

Bob Apollo: And that was a pretty pivotal observation. Invest in discovery, improve chances of success, or, of course equally, it allowed salespeople to accurately qualify out. So pattern number one, sell to organizations who are predisposed to buy your sort of solution from your sort of company. And two … And this is really a role I think for the first level sales leaders as much as performance effectiveness is, for the first level sales leaders to really coach, and mentor, and insist that their salespeople really do deep discovery.

And that when the sales leaders conduct opportunity reviews, that they insist on that their salespeople show they’re working, if you like; don’t just make hopeful assumptions about the deal, but they qualify, effectively. And so we distilled that into a handful of formalized qualification criteria on a short scale.

Michael Webb: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bob Apollo: But I think, the important thing we did on top of that was not just to invite the salesperson to sort of self-assess, “Is it high, medium, low.” Or what have you, on these scales. And, of course, those scales need to be very simply and clearly defined if you’re trying to be consistent in your qualification.

But we asked them to … and it needed only to be a single sentence, to justify to themselves how and why they came to that particular decision; in fact, that’s how we positioned it. We said, “We’re not trying to collect all this information to, subsequently, subject you to review. The primary purpose of asking you to capture your reason, your justification, is so that you can be sure you’ve got your thinking straight.”

Michael Webb: Yeah, and something that’s what’s in it for the salesperson?

Bob Apollo: Yeah. And by the way, my general observations are CRM projects are much more successful when the organization implementing them consciously, and not half-heartedly, involves the salespeople in their definition, in their rollout, and so on. If these systems are imposed centrally, the chances of success are very significantly reduced.

Michael Webb: Okay, so is there more … You had said to me, “It’s easier to start with a behavioral mindset-”

Bob Apollo: Yeah.

Michael Webb: And then look at what data is required to change behaviors.”

Bob Apollo: Or to measure the ideas. And so to be clear, I mean I think it depends a little bit on how we’re defining behavior. If by behavior we mean things that salespeople do, then I think we can establish data which helps us recognize patterns of effective and ineffective performance.

But behaviors also, in part, are mindset, and that … If I think of, as I do, work with clients to recruit the right sort of salespeople, it really helps if you’ve got a bunch of salespeople who’ve got the right mindset to start with. And if when you add new hires, a big part of your criteria is about attitude, and aptitude, and potential capability, and not just about the past experience that they can claim.

Michael Webb: Yeah, one fellow I talked with a few years ago had a great way to capture that. He said, “Some organizations try to hire salespeople and expect them to prove how good they are. But better sales organizations hire salespeople and then expect them to improve how good they are.”

Bob Apollo: Well, yeah-

Michael Webb: Difference in mindset there.

Bob Apollo: And I think you’ve actually implied a very, very fundamental point here. Because in our discussions, we might have been implying that it’s the organization for whom the salesperson works that sort of bears the brunt of sales effectiveness initiatives.

But I think really what we’re looking for is to recruit a team of salespeople and, by team, I certainly mean people who are prepared, and willing, and good at collaborating with each other and not just being personally successful.

But I think we need to look for, when we’re hiring, for salespeople who have accepted a personal responsibility for self-improvement. Who are curious, who read sales books, who attend events, who would never ever get to a point where they either think or imply that they’ve learned it all.

People who are still seeing themselves on an upward learning trajectory. I think that’s just so, so important and it’s extremely dangerous if either by accident, or design, we end up recruiting people who have peaked, who have no further to go-

Michael Webb: Right.

Bob Apollo: In terms of their desire, or willingness, or ability to improve themselves.

Michael Webb: Okay so sort of a wrap-up question here then. In this context, which I think has been fascinating and very well-articulated, this role of CRM software, something has changed from the early years to now.

Bob Apollo: Yeah.

Michael Webb: What is it that the CRM software enables you to do that you couldn’t do before?

Bob Apollo: Well, of course, you have to choose the right platform. And I would suggest for anybody who’s looking at CRM today, to look for a platform that recognizes the importance of guiding the right behaviors in the salespeople.

So I believe what we can do today, that it was hard to do before, was to be able to include guidance in the CRM, situational guidance … If I’m selling into finance, here is information that’s valuable for having really constructive conversations with finance companies at this stage in the process.

So I think one of the things that a really effective CRM system can do is to guide the salespeople in accumulated best practice; and, of course, that accumulated best practice is evolving all the time. One of the things one of my clients does is regularly run sessions with their salespeople saying, “So what are the new objections you’re hearing.” And then we roleplay them, so that everybody in the sales organization can be exposed to, “So how could I deal with this?” So that’s one thing.

I think the other thing to look for, whether it’s integrated directly into the CRM, and increasingly it is, so I think that’s a tremendous step forward, or whether it’s a third-party specialist add on, is that all of the CRM data is exposed and can be viewed and manipulated through a sales analytics; whether you call it portal, or window, or function.

So, guidance for the individual salespeople, analytics, pattern recognition, raw material for identifying opportunities for improvement; and that’s something for the sales management and the sales leadership. There’s a bunch of other things but-

Michael Webb: Yeah.

Bob Apollo: I would suggest that those two are particularly important.

Michael Webb: I remember a lengthy conversation I had, pardon me, with a product manager of a … let’s put it this way, the largest, if not one of the largest, CRM software companies, and admitted to me on the phone that his system out of the box is not capable of calculating or tracking the conversion rates that actually take place-

Bob Apollo: Right.

Michael Webb: From stage one, to stage two, to stage three, stage four. But it does so many other good things, it’s a really, really good system. And I’m thinking to myself, “Oh my God, oh my God.”

Bob Apollo: Well that did a couple of things, though. One, it opened the door to third-party analytics vendors, and I know the company you’re thinking of. And one of its virtues, actually, is if you know where to look, you can find all of that information.

Michael Webb: It just costs extra, right? Extra to pull that information out, and customize the program, and put add-ons.

Bob Apollo: Yeah.

Michael Webb: And all that.

Bob Apollo: Yeah. So at least it was capturing it, but they’d opened the door to a bunch of … And some, in particular I can think of, third-party analytics vendors who just do an outstanding job of helping sales leaders to detect patterns.

And it also opened the door for a new generation of CRM solutions that if they had built around the idea of guiding and analyzing sales performance; of course, it’s a no brainer the sort of statistics you’ve referred to. And actually much more ought to just be automatically generated by the system.

Michael Webb: Right, that’s right. And the truth is, those systems were built to fulfill the need perceived by the managements of the time.

Bob Apollo: Yeah.

Michael Webb: And it’s a shame, but most managements don’t understand how you can use data to change and improve the sales process; they think it’s about more activity, better salespeople, work harder, more proposals. And as long as senior leaders think that’s just the way it is in sales, there’s not going to be much demand.

Bob Apollo: Well-

Michael Webb: In improving it.

Bob Apollo: Let me reassure you that I think that those behaviors, those attitudes, may still exist amongst a certain proportion of the sales leadership population; either by accident or by design. And I suppose it’s a bit of a self-qualifying thing, because anybody who looks at my philosophy, and buys into it, will probably naturally fit into the more enligh… I hope would fit into the more enlightened category.

I think there are, hopefully, a growing group of sales leaders who actually have recognized the value of data. Everything from very simple things like time in stage, conversion by stage, how those things differ between net new business, and install base, and upsells, and recognizing that you can’t apply a one size fits all. So I’m encouraged, actually, I believe even if they’re not in the majority, there’s a growing group of sales leaders who are becoming more data literate.

Michael Webb: Yes, I agree with you. So Bob, once again, great conversation. Thank you very much for agreeing to be on the podcast and speaking so openly, and in putting up with my sort of analytical questions; I appreciate it. If someone in the audience wants to learn more about you, how do they find you?

Bob Apollo: Well I certainly hope they do. And if they choose to want to find out more, you can find me on my website and that is www.inflexion-point.com, and inflection is spelled with an ‘X’. And on that site, there’s a couple of areas that I’d encourage visitors to take a look at. One of the obvious ones is the blog, and I’ve got also what I hope they will find a useful resources area, where there’s a number of videos downloads, etc., that I hope they will find informative and maybe even stimulating.

Michael Webb: Super, well thank you very much, we’ll have to do this again soon.

Bob Apollo: I look forward to it.